GRACE POE and how NOT to damage control (UPDATE on who did it)


UPDATE: A a citizen volunteer for Sen. Poe has owned up on the error of that video. Leon Flores, former chair of the National Youth Commission (NYC), co-convenor of the Good Governance Pilipinas (GoGracePoe), a citizen volunteer for Sen. Poe. He takes full responsibility for the error. His note below, unedited. My views on her statements stand.

Dear Sen. Grace Poe,

You’ve mostly talked sense — not all the time, but mostly — since you campaigned for your current post. During that campaign, when thrown questions on popular issues, you were studied — this part right, but other parts need to be studied. You did very well chairing the Senate probes into the MRT mess. You did even better in the Mamasapano investigation — your committee report is as good as can be expected from the limits of your task.

But you were dead wrong in your statements on the Iglesia ni Cristo protest. And you got well-deserved flak for that. READ: Pandering to the INC 

Now, your PR people, whoever they are, are compounding that mistake. I’m not sure if these are professionals or close friends, but your son is apparently one of them.

Tell them this:

grace poe damage1Stop sending a truncated video — labelled “FULL Grace Poe response.” when it is actually only a portion of your remarks. 

It is a representation. The actual youtube video says “clip” but your social media label is unethical because it leads people to believe the “clip” if the “full response.”

Worse, it is being used to tell journalists that reports on your reactions are wrong. And it is being used as the basis of memes aimed at “correcting” news reports.

It is not just an error of fact or a tactical miss. It is an UNETHICAL act. It tries to mislead the public when we journalists were emailed a FULL transcript of that interview by your good office. Why don’t you just release as a note the transcript you sent us so that people can judge — based on the right information?

Just to jog your memory, here’s what your office sent. I am reproducing full transcript and highlighting the portions pertaining to the INC case.

SEN. GRACE POE AMBUSH INTERVIEW TRANSCRIPT

August 28, 2015

Sen. Grace Poe: ….mga estudyante marami pa talagang kailangang gawin sa kanilang mga adhikain, mga pangangailangan nila. Saka iba talaga ang enerhiya kapag mga bata kasama  mo. Yun nga edukasyon ay napakahalaga kasi nga naniniwala ako na ito ang sektor na yaman ng ating bayan. Pero hindi naman sila magiging produktibo na mamamayan kung hindi sila bibigyan ng sapat na tulong ng gobyerno. Yung unang bill ko kasi libreng pananghalian sa public schools. Hanggang ngayon ay tinutulak natin yan, sana naman ay matuloy na.

Question: Dun sa ibang interviews sa inyo, you emphasized, you always replied pagdating doon sa issue ng citizenship. Is this your way of reaching out to more audiences to explain to them ‘yung issue, rather than holding a presscon?

Poe: Oo, kasi alam mo lahat ng tao curious talaga. Ano ba talaga ang buhay nitong taong ito? Pilipino ba talaga siya? Tama lang na suriin nila ang aking pagkatao. Kaya mabuti na nanggagaling na mismo sa akin dahil hindi naman ako nagtatago ng katotohanan sa kanila. Ngayon sa batas dadaan naman tayo sa tamang proseso at hindi naman po tayo nagtatago ng kung ano pa mang kailangang malaman.

Q: Is this your way to gather more public support po?

Poe: Actually, I don’t really. Going around, I’ve been expecting people to ask me that question. But that it’s not really my intention. Hindi ko naman intensyon. Pero curious talaga sila. Yun talaga yung gusto nilang matanong kasi yun ang napapabalitaan nila na ibinabato sa akin, na ako raw ay hindi Pilipino. So at least nandito ako para ikwento sa kanila na bakit nila sinasabi na hindi ako Pilipino. Dahil hindi nila alam ang kadugo ng, kung sinuman ang biological parents ko.

Q: Ma’am, ngayon po nag-iikot po kayo sa maraming lugar ngayong linggo, bahagi na po ba ito ng paghahanda ninyo?

Poe: Kung saka-sakali malaking bagay ito kasi katulad niyan, galing ako ng Zamboanga. Kinausap natin mismo doon ang mga tao, business sector at mga internally displaced person tungkol sa BBL kung ano ang palagay nila diyan. Kasi mahirap naman na nakaupo ka sa Senado, hindi mo nakakausap yung mga taong direktang naapektuhan. Dito sa Nueva Ecija at sa Pangasinan halimbawa, apektado sila ng tagtuyot, El Niño, ano’ng kulang natin? Imprastraktura ng mga dam, ng mga water entrapment facilities. So dapat ay saksi ka sa tunay na pinagdadaanan ng iyung mga kababayan.

Q: So bahagi na po ito ng inyong paghahanda?

Poe:  Bahagi. Kasi naman pag ako ay natuloy, kapag natanong ako, ano ba sa palagay mo ang solusyon sa mga problema na yan? Eh baka hindi ko alam.

Q: Ma’am bakit dun sa mga pag-iikot mo, this week ma’am, bakit puro mga estudyante, puro bata?

Poe: Doon sa pag-iikot ko, nakakataba sa puso ko yung assurance na marami sa mga kabataan ay alam ang nangyayari sa ating gobyerno. Let us not underestimate the youth. Huwag natin silang maliitin. Huwag natin apihin ang kanilang oportunidad at pagkakataon. Katulad nga niyan, nagkaroon ng pag-uusap sa CHED. Bagama’t tumaas ang budget nila, binawasan nila ang pera para sa scholars. Eh yun ang pinakaimportante. More than other items in the budget, kailangan ay mag-invest tayo sa mga kabataan at education is the best equalizer. Nagbibigay ito ng oportunidad. E kung babawasan mo yung P300 million, sa halagang iyon parang ipinapahiwatig mo na hindi ka masyadong seryoso.

Q: Sa pag-iikot po ninyo ma’am, were you encouraged sa pagdedesisyon ninyo?

Poe: Para sa akin, ang pag-iikot kong ito, naramdaman ko ang pagmamahal. Hindi lamang nila sa akin kundi, ako sa kanila. Alam mo nakikita ko, ito yung mga pinaglaban noon ni FPJ. Kaya nga kapag sinasabi nilang inclusive growth, it means more than just, it’s not just a buzz word. Ito ang totoo na wala tayong iiwanan dapat sa ating mga paggawa ng tulong sa gobyerno. Dapat lahat ay kasama, hindi yung pipili ka lang ng sektor na uunlad.

Q: Ma’am do you have timeline po before you decide?

Poe: Before October 16.

Q: On INC

Poe: Kasi alam mo unang-una hindi ba ako’y nakikiramay sa marami nating mga kababayan.  Alam ko lalo na ‘yung pinagdadaanan nila. Kasi sa hustiya natin sa atin, marami ang nakasampa ngayon sa DOJ. Ihihingi pa natin ng resolusyon. Alam ko hindi madali. Kaya pati na rin sa SAF44 na ngayon hinihintay natin. Siguro mas makakabuti, dahil alam ko naman si Sec. De Lima, sabi nga niya ginagawa niya yung kanyang trabaho, ay humarap siya sa mga tao na nagra-rally. Mahinahon at i-eksplika, kung ano ba’ng sitwasyon bakit nangyayari ng ganun. Kasi after all, kami naman ang nasa gobyerno ang responsibilidad naming ay maipamahagi ng maayos sa ating mga kakabayan, bakit ganun ang aming mga hakbang sa pamunuan. 

Q: Pero sa tingin niyo po ba dapat hawakan ng DOJ ang kaso?

Poe: Alam mo sa totoo lamang, maraming inaasikaso ang DOJ. Para sa akin hindi ko alam talaga lahat ng detalye tungkol diyan. Siyempre magtataka ka rin bakit ang tutok doon, samantalang, halimbawa yung ibang mga kaso ng gobyerno wala naman silang witnesses pa, na naka-hold. Halimbawa, tinatanong ko mayroon na ba kayong nakuha doon sa Mamasapano massacre? Mayroon na raw mga inimbestigahan pero wala pa namang naka-witness protection at least, sa pagkakaalam ko. 

Q: Mayroon po bang fallback ang Liberal Party in case Grace Poe decides to run for president?

Poe: I’m sure naman lahat ng partido ay naghahanda sa kahit na ano’ng contingency.

Q: Ma’am yung sa INC, even if may kidnapping issue dapat ba hindi makialam ang DOJ?

Poe: Depende kasi sa lakas ng kaso. Pagdating kasi, I think dapat transparent. Ang pagkakaalam ko ng issue, ito’y isang saksi sa taong nakidnap. Pero  yung tao nakidnap diumano ay nandoon naman. Hindi ba free? So ako kasi hindi ako parte ng DOJ, gusto ko rin malaman. Kaya nga sinasabi ko, tama yung sinabi ni secretary kung ginawa niya ang kanyang trabaho. I-eksplika niya sa taumbayan kung anong merits ng case. Pero alam mo, huwag rin nating mamaliitin ang importansiya ng relihiyon. Para sa akin ang mga tao na yan ang dinidepensahan nila ay ang kanilang paniniwala. Nirerespeto natin yan at kailangan pangalagaan din ang kanilang mga karapatan. Thanks guys. #

That last paragraph is the pits. And here’s why.

Photo from Net25 TV's Facebook page
Photo from Net25 TV’s Facebook page

Ang pagkakaalam ko ng issue, ito’y isang saksi sa taong nakidnap. Pero  yung tao nakidnap diumano ay nandoon naman. Hindi ba free? So ako kasi hindi ako parte ng DOJ, gusto ko rin malaman. (You don’t know, but you throw out, “Hindi ba free?” You want to know — how do you want to get at the truth? On the streets? Coffeeshop gossip? A meeting with De Lima? You’re a lawmaker and should know better. This is a criminal complaint, filed with prosecutors. You get the truth — or what passes for it — from a formal inquiry into the complaint.)

Kaya nga sinasabi ko, tama yung sinabi ni secretary kung ginawa niya ang kanyang trabaho. I-eksplika niya sa taumbayan kung anong merits ng case. (Excuse me? De Lima referred it — a bit late, if I say so; ask the lawyers of the complainant — to prosecutors. That is where the merits of the case are scrutinized and resolved.)

Pero alam mo, huwag rin nating mamaliitin ang importansiya ng relihiyon. Para sa akin ang mga tao na yan ang dinidepensahan nila ay ang kanilang paniniwala. Nirerespeto natin yan at kailangan pangalagaan din ang kanilang mga karapatan. (Good god, I don’t care what religion you or anyone professes. This is not about religion. This is about a criminal complaint on a very serious charge. I am hoping you do not believe that HOW “discipline” is meted out is a purely internal faith matter even when such allegedly violates the laws of this land.)

As lawyer Trixie Cruz-Angeles notes:

Dear Ms. Grace Poe: Sec. 3 of the Anti Graft and Corrupt Practices Act states:
3. Corrupt practices of public officers.– In addition to acts or omissions of public officers already penalized by existing law, the following shall constitute corrupt practices of any public officer and are hereby declared to be unlawful:
(a) persuading, inducing or influencing another public officer to perform an act constituting a violation of rules and regulations duly promulgated by competent authority or an offense in connection with the official duties of the latter, or allowing himself to be persuaded, induced or influenced to commit such violation or offense.
Now could you repeat your spiel about how the Justice Secretary needs to focus on other cases and not to take cognizance of the case for serious illegal detention filed by one Isaias Samson, Jr?

Again, you are dead wrong. Don’t add to your misery. People, including myself, respect people who promptly acknowledge mistakes and explain their new-found wisdom. This is beneath you.

HERE IS AN UPDATE: It was sent by Leon Flores, former chair of the National Youth Commission (NYC), co-convenor of the Good Governance Pilipinas (GoGracePoe), a citizen volunteer for Sen. Poe. He takes full responsibility for the error. Here is his note, unedited
Inday, I sought out the interview from Nueva Ecija because somehow I got a feeling that the words from Sen. Grace Poe were just taken out of context. I was able to get hold of a clip and uploaded it on our group’s Youtube account, Good Governance Pilipinas (GoGracePoe). GGP is a volunteer citizen-led group supporting Sen. Poe and egging her to run. We were lead and co-organizers of the #TakboNaPoe event last Aug. 16. I was uploading the interview video clip while I was in the middle of a speech contest yesterday. At first I titled it “Full video…” thinking that it was. I shared it on FB and asked others to share as well too. I asked for a transcript of the video thereafter and that was when I realized that it was only a partial clip. So I changed the title right away to “Clip of Grace Poe…” on our Youtube channel. Apparently when the FB post gets shared and reposted, it retains the original title “Full clip..”. Not much of a techie but my hunch is that it is a mere technological limitation. THERE WAS NO INTENTION TO BE UNETHICAL ABOUT IT. Second, it was my intention to be transparent about the whole transcript so I also posted it wholly on the video description. This effort to clarify things for Sen. Grace Poe and to seek out the clip was borne out of the request of some GP supporters (and yes even questions from the other camp). I also wish to clarify that while I do know Brian Poe, her son, he has nothing to do with our actions. GGP is a group of willing, eager, and able volunteers who believe in Senator Grace Poe. If you wish to know us more, we will be happy to have coffee with you soon. I hope this clarifies the issue on the video. All other issues pertaining to the INC case, you may officially seek from Mam Poe’s office.

No choice but to ‘break protocol’ for Mary Jane


The personal touch has always been one of President Benigno Aquino’s greatest strengths. It has also been a major weakness of the Philippine’s incumbent Chief Executive.

When it moves him, Mr. Aquino can be dogged, emphatic, unleashing the Aquino charm. Conversely, the President comes off as unfeeling and uncaring, and prone to convoluted logic when put on the defensive. (Read, Mamasapano and the SAF 44).

recruiterIn the temporary stay of execution granted Mary Jane Veloso, Mr. Aquino must be credited for reaching out to the Indonesian government and for suggesting that targeting big narcotic fishes, instead of little mules, would be in the best interests of both countries.

No less than Indonesia’s Attorney General confirmed that Veloso was spared after Aquino’s appeal that Veloso be used as a witness in the impending case against her recruiter Maria Kristina P. Sergio, also known as Mary Christine Gulles Pasadilla.

“There was a request from the Philippine president regarding the perpetrator who’s suspected of committing human trafficking and surrendered in the Philippines. Mary Jane is needed for her testimony,” Tony Spontana, the spokesman for Indonesia’s Attorney General, said in a text message to media.

Indonesian President Joko Widodo (Jokowi) had remained silent following a personal appeal from the Philippine President during the ASEAN summit in Kuala Lumpur.

Based on a Reuters report, the reported “surrender” of Mary Jane’s alleged recruiter tipped the scales for the hapless Filipino woman.  The Indonesian Cabinet secretary has also acknowledged that activists, who helped in Jokowi’s rise, played a major role in their President’s change of heart.

Keeping one’s eye of the big fish is, by the way, a strategy long practised by the best intelligence units — whether dealing with illegal drugs, human trafficking or terrorism. Sometimes, zeal gets the better of them and they find themselves abetting illegal, criminal actions while trying to hook the big fish. There are laws that ban such practices and, if caught, law enforcers may see their target walk.

11083945_10206177494654153_1422238296516788771_nMr. Aquino’s aides note, rightly, that he was so adamant he broke protocol  to save Mary Jane’s life. That means talking to officials other than Jokowi, his counterpart.

I’d laud him for that, too.

I’ll also point out that it was the least he could do.

Failing Mary Jane

You see, a big part of why Mary Jane found her self on the verge of execution was because the Philippine government had done nothing to follow up her claim that she was duped into carrying narcotics.

It started as a human trafficking case.

Cops were somber as they listened to narratives of Mary Jane's ordeal. Photo by author
Cops were somber as they listened to narratives of Mary Jane’s ordeal. Photo by author

As many hapless Filipinos have experienced in the Middle East, Mary Jane was abused by an employer and forced back home. Bereft of any hope for a productive job, probably still in the process of paying off debts incurred in her first trip, she sought the help of Kristina Sergio.

When no job materialized in Malaysia, she was invited to try out her luck in Indonesia, given a new luggage, some new clothes.

Mary Jane’s Indonesian lawyers were not remiss in telling the Philippine government that going after Sergio was critical to saving their client. Mary Jane had sworn testimonies. Her family also coordinated with the government. They were told that making noise could endanger Mary Jane, told to trust in the system.

That is the context around President Aquino’s last-minute efforts to reach out to Indonesia.

He did his part at crunch time. But there can be no denying that the system, this government – his government – failed Mary Jane big time.

Sin of Omission

Even after Mr. Aquino wrote Indonesian leaders to request clemency for Mary Jane, NOTHING WAS DONE?  What were those letters premised on, simple mercy?

Mary Jane’s lawyers and allies were clear: their request for a review, for a step back hinged on the tenet that with death so final a punishment, it is but just to exhaust all remedies that allow a sentenced person to prove her case.

In Mary Jane’s case, flaws in the Indonesian system (a lack of translator that confused Mary Jane, among other things) and the greater flaw at home — nothing was ever done to follow up her claim.

Governments should not be even staging last minute saves – unless during a clear, sudden accident. Governments should ensure that citizens get the best possible service, especially when their lives are at stake, especially when they find themselves toiling in harsh, dangerous and hostile conditions.

Well, this is what the government will do NOW.

“Our Department of Justice will do a case build-up and provide the information to the Indonesian authorities, so that the position of Mary Jane may be clarified, that she was a victim of a human trafficking and illegal drug trafficking syndicate,” Coloma said.

The question is, despite documents, why wasn’t it done BEFORE?

I understand private lawyers and migrant groups are closing in on a paper trail that could shed light on why Mary Jane was abandoned on the most important part of her defense, even as the government went through the motions of “helping out”.

The least of the cases

I heaRd Kristina Sergio over dzMM. She, of course, denies having anything to do about narcotics. She also denies she is an illegal recruiter.

In the interview I heard, she claimed to be a legitimate representative of a legitimate and credible employment agency. No names were given (and none asked by the anchors).

Sergio claimed Mary Jane approached her. I’ll buy that. The countryside gossip network is vast and operates overtime, especially on matters of livelihood.

Her later interviews, however, give lie to the story of being a legitimate employment agent.

A legitimate manpower agent deals directly with clients, ensures that a job and a proper contract are available and waiting, and that all government requirements at home and abroad have been met, before sending an OFW to greener pastures.

A legitimate employment agent is not an escort service, not someone who shells out considerable funds for someone’s plane fare, hotel accommodation, plus some pocket money, for a possible job. That is a classic human trafficking set-up.

Everywoman

If only on that score, the government’s inaction in the case of Mary Jane is criminal.

That the human trafficking eventually turned out to be narcotics smuggling only makes the omission more grave.

Even on the day the Indonesians bent back to give Mary Jane a chance to make good her story, Serigio was not under arrest. She was under protective custody because of alleged threats received in the run up to the scheduled execution.

If the government really wants to show the world it is determined to go mano-a-mano with narcotics lord, it must also provide the answers to questions surrounding Mary Jane and Sergio.

You see, that was the crux of the matter: The Philippine government was begging Indonesia to save Mary Jane after it failed to do so.

Ten percent of our nation is scattered to the winds. Mary Jane could have been a sister, a friend, a parent, a spouse, a partner.

I’d have broken protocol, too, if I were the President. There was no other choice.

‘SPOILED’


Child of martyrs, stumping

for her brother’s birthright

to ascend the throne.

Who better to untangle

the skeins of skin and rot

than a reluctant heir?

Raised to honor legacy,

the son soars, tethered

by a million yellow ribbons.

Behind the righteous shroud

sprawls Luisita, red-stained,

beyond the pale of justice.

What about them? She smiles.

Luisita is love. So much love,

she says, workers were ‘spoiled’

Paradise lost to the rabble?

Think graveyard, where the gods

dance on the carcasses of slaves

Photo of a victim of Hacienda Luisita massacre by KM64
Photo of a victim of Hacienda Luisita massacre by KM64

WHY ABAD SHOULD RESIGN


justice-2Budget Secretary Butch Abad should resign — and not only because he takes attention and energies away from the trial of the plunder senators (Enrile, Estrada, Revilla and their cohorts like Napoles and Gigi Reyes).

He should resign because he presided (as alter ego of the President) over the crafting and implementation of the Disbursement Acceleration Program (DAP), a grave subversion of what could have been a landmark program.

Abad-w-Ehanced-DBM-logoAbad had urged people to campaign against PDAF. All the while, he was orchestrating DAP and the defense of DAP.

The irony here is that a portion of DAP also went to the same Napoles NGOs named in the PDAF scams.

Abad was a former legislator. He once chaired the House of Representatives’ powerful Appropriations Committee. He is an experienced executive branch senior official.

There was no way Abad nor his Boss, President Aquino — who, as senator, filed a bill to control impoundment abuses — could not have known that the nuts and bolts of DAP were unconstitutional.

I’m all for his resignation. I do not think he pocketed huge sums. I believe, however, that he and his colleagues and their Boss wilfully ignored all alarm bells and even warnings from worried insiders. The reason for this was not ignorance but a worldview, which holds that self-proclaimed noble intentions should absolve you of blame for legal shortcuts.

That kind of rationalization has no place in a functioning, genuine democracy.

Abad and the DBM have implemented reforms. The Philippine Center for Investigative Journalism earlier reported that the slowdown in infrastructure projects, aimed at improving efficiency and reviewing contracts for onerous conditions had, indeed, led to savings for the government.

But even a desire to involve communities in fiscal management should is no excuse for illegal acts. Nor should it blind people to the serious infirmities of DAP. At the very least, there are existing legal mechanisms that, combined with an exercise of political will, allow for this avowed intention.

malversation of funds technical lawphil.net“Intention” has long been a byword of tyrants.

I will not place President Aquino, for all his faults, on that level.

But the last time I checked, technical malversation (and that’s the kindest phrase for what happened) remains a crime in the Philippines.

Some folk also think that, since Abad was responsible for much of DAP — a program that allowed monies to flow again to the coffers of Napoles and friends — he could be charged with malversation of funds.

malversation of funds

The Supreme Court does distinguish between the two crimes. In G.R. No. 96025 May 15, 1991 (OSCAR P. PARUNGAO vs.SANDIGANBAYAN and PEOPLE OF THE PHILIPPINES) the High Court stressed:

“A comparison of the two articles reveals that their elements are entirely distinct and different from the other. In malversation of public funds, the offender misappropriates public funds for his own personal use or allows any other person to take such public funds for the latter’s personal use. In technical malversation, the public officer applies public funds under his administration not for his or another’s personal use, but to a public use other than that for which the fund was appropriated by law or ordinance.”

As the Supreme Court notes, the government can always defend itself in a proper forum that determines facts.

Resignation alone doesn’t cut it. That’s a cop out that just allows another faction of the elite to enjoy the fruits of people’s indignation and then continue with the same gross acts.

While our justice system is flawed, a formal complaint and trial would at least shore up the legal foundation to prevent similar acts.

I also agree with Sylvia Claudio’s call On Rappler  — “Let the investigation of all DAP and PDAF resources continue, including the investigation of alleged DAP plunderers Bongbong Marcos and Vicente Sotto III” — but will add, AND ALL OTHERS INVOLVED IN PDAF AND DAP anomalies. 

If the former budget chief is facing charges for allowing monies to be pocketed by Enrile and company, why do we hold to a different standard of behavior in the era of tuwid na daan?

For now, I am against ouster efforts — until I actually believe there is an unchanging pattern in criminality within the highest levels of government.

I also get that, yes, the minions of Enrile, Estrada, Revilla et al, will try to make us believe that they should not be punished unless PNOY is punished, too. That’s bullshit. Nobody should buy that argument.

#scrappork network pushes for plunder raps against Senators Enrile, Revilla and Estrada and Janet Napoles. Photo from solarnews.com
#scrappork network pushes for plunder raps against Senators Enrile, Revilla and Estrada and Janet Napoles. Photo from solarnews.com

But a distinction should be made between the malicious twisting of the call to campaign against selective justice (see Tanda, Sexy and Pogi) and the sincere belief that, while there should be no let up in the plunder and graft charges, it shouldn’t stop with the three pigs.

At the very least, probes SHOULD start and the chips fall where they must.

To dismiss this need because of the need to focus on the plunder raps against Enrile et al misses the entire point.

Besides, the early missteps in these plunder raps cannot be placed at the foot of PNOY’s critics.

There is focus. Then there is justice. Nobody said it would be a picnic.

Claudio is right to point out it’s a long process. But to fall silent on the need to hold people accountable, for expedience or a fear of other sectors, is to delay that process.

There are mandated legal forms of redress. I cannot say “do it” to Tanda, Sexy and Pogi and then attack others for using the same to hold others accountable. If they have the energy and resources to pursue these efforts — and where a sitting President is concerned, impeachment is the mandated mode — I will not throw stones at them.

The fact that, as a citizen, I prefer to exert my energies on other things, are a reflection of my limitations rather than a rejection of others’ efforts.

(Update: The DOJ seems focusing only on senators again. The Ombudsman has also formed a panel of investigators; let’s see how that goes.)